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Responses To: "Finally -- a Discussion Forum"


Subject: "Finally -- a Discussion Forum" created on 06/21/06 by intellectual_advocate

Thank you so much for starting a much needed discussion forum.

I'm posting to suggest that you add two new forum areas that also deal with less obvious but equally devestating forms of global wage arbitrage:

1. Foreign Work Visas, such as the H-1B and L-1.

2. Immigration



Comment


John Konop says "Response" on 06/26/06
America is no longer in charge of American immigration laws. Huge multinational corporations have built in a loophole by lobbying Rep. Tom Price and other members of Congress to p*** the CAFTA trade agreement.

Immigration Reform Doesn’t Begin and End at the Border

Even if Americans can finally convince Congress to secure the borders and begin enforcing existing immigration laws, it can all be evaded. Multinational corporations can subvert our immigration laws to insure a steady and endless flow of cheap, wage-lowering immigrant labor—while small businesses have to play by the rules.

Under Tom Price’s CAFTA, a foreign country that doesn’t like our immigration laws (or trade laws) can sue America in an “international tribunal”. These three-member tribunals are rigged—the foreign country names two of the “judges” while we name only one.

Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo goes on to explain: “If an international tribunal rules against us, Congress would then be forced to change our immigration laws or face international trade sanctions. These tribunals have the authority to rule that U.S. immigration limits, visa requirements, or even licensing requirements and zoning rules are ‘unnecessary burdens to trade’ that act as ‘restrictions on the supply of a service.’”

State Laws Are Also Vulnerable

Trade policies under NAFTA, CAFTA, and WTO don’t just threaten federal trade and immigration laws. States can lose the ability to set their own purchasing preferences if they are found to “discriminate” against foreign companies. For example, the following kinds of laws and policies can be overturned by foreign tribunal courts:

Buy Local or Buy American policies
Laws that prohibit the off-shoring of state jobs
Preferences for recycled content, renewable energy, and fuel-efficient vehicles
Disqualification of contractors based on labor, human rights, or environmental practices
It gets worse: The state of Utah is currently being sued by the government of Antigua and Barbuda because Utah’s gambling regulations conflict with America's trade agreement obligation not to discriminate against foreigners providing "recreational services."

Amnesty for Trade Cheats

In the run-up to the CAFTA vote, Congressman Charlie Norwood (R-GA) called CAFTA’s foreign tribunals, “Amnesty for trade cheats, just like the same crowd’s proposals on amnesty for illegal aliens.” Tom Price ignored that and many other warnings. He dangled his CAFTA vote until the very end, and then finally sold out.

Under these trade deals, Americans are forced to compete against workers from countries with vastly inferior labor, wage, and environmental standards. That is not “fair” trade—not if you’re an American.

They also create a double-standard in law enforcement. A multinational corporation accused of violating U.S. immigration law can hide behind a stacked foreign tribunal. An American small business accused of the same offence must obey the law or face the penalties.

If you think one person can’t make a difference, remember: CAFTA p***ed by one vote.

Join challenger John Konop in demanding that these disastrous trade deals be renegotiated to:

Make American law the final authority in America
Include stronger enforcement provisions that support the interests of working families and small businesses
Please help us get the message out by sharing this release and by making a donation. Thank you.

Additional Reading:

States’ Rights vs. Free Trade, by Business Week

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_10/b3923130.htm?campaign_id=search

CAFTA Undermines Immigration Laws, by Congressman Tom Tancredo

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/07/18/opinion/commentary/71705195445.txt

CAFTA: Amnesty for Trade Cheats, by Congressman Charlie Norwood

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2005jun17.html

www.controlcongress.com




sm8900 says "Response" on 06/27/06
Totally awesome/. I applaud the moderators of this web page for creating these forums. Thanks.


sm8900 says "Response" on 06/27/06
By the way, immigrants, and visa policies, are not even remotely the reason for our current woes, such as GM laying off 60,000 workers, or consumers no longer buying Americans, cars, VCRS and other products. These have much deeper causes which neeed to be addressed separately.


intellectual_advocate says "Response" on 07/03/06

It isn't related to the auto companies' woes, which have numerous causes, some of which do not involve wage arbitrage. Producing products of an inferior quality is one such cause. However, m*** immigration and foreign work visas, such as the H-1B and L-1, are part of global labor wage arbitrage that serve to depress American wages (while also increasing the nation's population and thus the costs of resources, such as land and environmental costs).

The use of the foreign work visas increases the supply of college-educated labor, which decreases wages, especially when new knowledge-based jobs are being sent overseas. Likewise, m*** immigration increases the supply of low-skilled labor which decreases American wages, especially when new manufacturing jobs are being sent overseas.

I know it's politically incorrect to say all of that, but as I see it, it's the truth--increasing supply of labor without a corresponding and proportional increase in the demand for labor means a lower price (wages) point.



OfARevolution says "Response" on 07/05/06
WOW! What can I say? As a 27 year old middle cl*** American this site has really opened my eyes. I consider myself highly educated and unfortunately after reading many of the articles on this site, completely naive about this country and our economy. While most young people my age are working to achieve the "American Dream" I find myself becoming more and more cynical and disappointed in my country and my fellow Americans. An interesting quote sums up the mindset of a lot of young people in this country who have no clue what's happening before their eyes and what is going to be left to them in generations to come:

The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with your average voter.
Winston Churchill.

I think the underlying cause is the American public's perception of our country, politicians, and economy. I feel like we are all living in the twilight zone nowadays. I was until I read The Creature From Jekyll Island and happened upon this site. Thank you so much for this informative and truly insightful website. :)


clapton says "Response" on 07/07/06
Howdy John K... W***up? Have fun with Price tonight ;-)

Folks,

Let me introduce myself & my observations... I will be back later to discuss any topics raised concerning Economic Development & Innovation Issues.

www.masters2008.net
http://rooseveltparty.blogspot.com/
http://americafirst2004.blogspot.com
http://g8treason.blogspot.com/

It's Coming Soon to a Town Near You...

Regards,
M


sylvie says "Response" on 08/16/06
New to this forum. I'm very interested in what is happening with the economy and current housing bubble. I want to know why the goverment, wall street, and the media is lying or severly down playing this scenario? I suspect we are heading for a severe recession or stagflation. Seems the fed is being manipulated by the markets and the electorate. We are coming up on mid term elections soon. Listening to CNBC and other media busness cable channels they highly downplay especially the recent data which clearly shows to the contrary. The bulls wanna sing supply side forever. We are in e greatest catastrophe ever...


Joe Kelley says "Response" on 08/17/06
Sylvie,

If I may point out:

The power to create money is monopolized by fraud and force. If you can see this clearly, then, you may be less inclined to fear the future.

That power now held by people who are within the general category of the term Dollar Hegemony are facing dire future events that are man-made and are therefore preventable.

In other words:

If a person invests in Dollar denominated investments, then, that person is probably going to suffer sooner or later.

If, on the other hand, a person invests any from of credit, savings, capital, wealth, or whatever term describes actual possessions of value, if anyone invests those forms of wealth into non-dollar denominated investments, then, that person is not going to suffer the facts that will be suffered by the Dollar investors.

One may assume, falsely, that everyone must suffer because everyone depends upon the dollar.

If you are infected with that HUGE LIE, then, count yourself, please, as one of the victims of falsehood now and one of the future victims of the man-made financial catastrophe.

It is really quite simple. If you don't participate, then, you don't fuel the fire. If you don't participate, however, then you had better start thinking of ways to produce more, consume less, and invest wisely.

Or not; I'm not participating. I'm simply the Village Idiot that people find easy to ignore.

The funny part is:

The sky is NOT falling.

Note: The people who do have the power to create and monopolize money are not betting the farm on the dollar and I'll take the odds on that bet. They profit from the misery they create because too many of us are ignorant and apathetic - including me.






sylvie says "Response" on 08/19/06
Sounds like the secret societies of europe Rothchild's ect. I'm just a working girl struggling to be in the middle tier. I do not own a home and I have decent saving for emergencies. I know this current society is living and investing on credit. If I understand you correctly, no I'm not a participant. But I'd like to keep my head above water


sylvie says "Response" on 08/19/06
Sounds like the secret societies of europe Rothchild's ect. I'm just a working girl struggling to be in the middle tier. I do not own a home and I have decent saving for emergencies. I know this current society is living and investing on credit. If I understand you correctly, no I'm not a participant. But I'd like to keep my head above water


sylvie says "Response" on 08/19/06
Sounds like the secret societies of europe Rothchild's ect. I'm just a working girl struggling to be in the middle tier. I do not own a home and I have decent saving for emergencies. I know this current society is living and investing on credit. If I understand you correctly, no I'm not a participant. But I'd like to keep my head above water


Joe Kelley says "Response" on 08/20/06
[quote]Sounds like the secret societies of europe Rothchild's ect.[/quote]

Sounds are perceptions that fail to reach each ear in exactly the same way. The brain has to make sense out of the sounds.

In simpler terms:

If your savings is tied up in dollars, then, you are libel to suffer from dollar devaluation.

If,,on the other hand, you have invested in something other than dollars then you will be less likely to suffer dollar devaluation. What is being done or has been done or will be done in the future by anyone else is irrelevant to this fact.

What is relevant to the sounds that I am trying to communicate are the things that you, or anyone, does now and on into the foreseeable future concerning investments including savings if the idea is to avoid suffering from economic crisis rather than promote it.

I can elaborate however the more I write the more people find reason to attack me. I may be inventing time and energy into creating my own economic crisis.

The more I read, on the other hand, the more avenues I find that do insure a more prosperous future for my family.


sylvie says "Response" on 08/26/06
Yet, most of america sleeps and does not know what awaits them. Only the truly aware and informed know what pain is coming. This GOP administration had left the country in ruins. The smoke ad mirror tricks no longer work. Transparency ... Even the religious right who carried him last election have had a change of heart.

This country is is alot of trouble and I fear even the prudent and responcible will suffer along with the frivilous. Like a house of cards the Specuvestors and marginal home buyers will topple and bring eveyone else down with them. All the while complicity from the fed and electorate. The ***r boys are dying in Iraq for the americn dream that is crumbling for thier generation. And us boomers? No golden retirement years in the near future our goverment has made us perpetual slaves.. We will be religated to a second world power in our lifetime.


unlawflcombatnt says "Response" on 08/26/06
I'm glad to see this forum back up and running. It's been over a year. It was my favorite online forum until it disappeared. The information posted was always outstanding, especially the articles posted by Paul Craig Roberts.

Much has happened to our economy since that time, and none of it is good. The housing bubble is bursting. Real wages continue to decline. We're creating only a little over 100,000 jobs/month. We continue to lose manufacturing jobs. Illegal immigration has worsened. The limit on H1B visas has increased. Bush's high end tax cuts have continued. The minimum wage has not been raised. CAFTA has passed, causing further downward wage pressure on American workers. The Oman free trade deal has passed.

The worst part, of course, is that Bush and his Corporate Cheap Labor lobbyists are still in power. And still looking for more ways to increase the prosperity of Corporate America and the superwealthy, by reducing their taxes, and by reducing labor costs by importing cheaper labor and sending jobs to foreign countries where cheap semi-slave labor is available.

On the fiscal side, the country has spent more than it has earned for 4 quarters (a negative savings rate.)
2005 was the 1st year since the Depression that personal outlays exceeded disposable personal income. The situation is getting worse by the day. The annualized savings rate of -$97 billion in the 1st quarter of 2006 worsened to -$141 billion in the 2nd quarter of 2006. At the current rate of increase, it will exceed the annual increase in real GDP.

This deficit-financed growth of our economy will not continue much longer. The biggest source of this consumer deficit spending, home equity withdrawal, is already drying up. The housing bubble is deflating, reducing the home equity available to borrow from. Estimations are that home equity withdrawal will decline by over $100 billion in 2006, and maybe a lot more. Added to this will be a loss of employment in the real estate industry, due to the decline in demand for homes. Since 30% of all new jobs created under Bush have been in housing-related industries, the job loss could be huge, and the resultant decline in aggregate worker/consumer income may also be huge.

With a decline in both wages and home equity extraction, consumer spending has nowhere to go but down. And down a lot. Since consumer spending is 70% of all economic activity, this will create big problems. Since capital investment depends on purchase of goods, that are facilitated capital investment, it will also decline.

There are no countervailing factors on the horizon. There is nowhere for the economy to go but down. This appears much more imminent than it did a year ago.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPatriotForum
http://www.unlawflcombatnt.proboards84.com/

EconomicPopulistCommentary
http://www.unlawflcombatnt.blogspot.com/


Joe Kelley says "Response" on 08/27/06
ManhattenBrendan,

Thanks for the post.

I read three types of posts most of the time in this order of frequency:

A. Dooms Day Inevitabilities (Prophesies)
B. Dooms Day realities if nothing is done
C. Dooms Day is obviously preventable

The first type of post (any media source) leaves me in a state of desperation, horror, fear, shock, awe, depression, inaction, and quite sapped of energy or in other words: powerless.

The second type of post leaves me with all of the above emotional garbage with one new and false hope. I can point my finger at other people and blame them for not doing something about the Dooms Day realities. I can choose depression and powerlessness or I can choose the power of vengeance, retribution, punishment, and join in on the current crusade in support of the troops.

The third type is significantly absent. Here is one example of the third type of media post (source):

http://www.perfecteconomy.com/pg-parable-of-perfect-economy.html

The only thing preventing people from ignoring Dooms Day Prophecy and, instead, working cooperatively toward a prosperous future for present civilization and future posterity is the falsehood embraced between each one of our ears. Once that Con-game is rejected then the agreeable means to a mutually beneficial desired progress is a simple matter of finding agreement efficiently. False free currency is a good start. Knowing that currency includes all forms of communication media is a fact that may help each person defeat falsehood and begin to work toward a more prosperous future for each person at the expense of no other person.

As to the Conspiracy Theory ARGUMENT:

A simple accounting leads to a simple and accurate identification of responsibility. If a person launders the paper trail making sure as to remove all evidence marking responsibility, then, that person is conspiring to remove all evidence marking responsibility. The conspirators are the ones doing the hiding and the ones not looking for the reason for the hiding. Is this not fact?

A master is as dependent upon a slave as the slave is dependent upon the master. No slave = no master. No master = no slave. The relationship is a conspiracy based upon falsehood and simple aggressive violence.

Economic Crisis is preventable like death is preventable. A person doesn’t run across the freeway at rush hour blind folded unless they are led to believe something worse will happen if they do not.

The first thing to do in prevention against economic crisis, in my experience, is to recognize the folly of believing that it is inevitable.

Believing that economic crisis is inevitable is a conspiracy called self-fulfilling prophecy.

Those who engage in that self fulfilling prophecy are agent provocateurs in fact and believing otherwise is fancy.

"Responsibility must be Individual, or there is no responsibility at all." Josiah Warren (1852)


Ricdis2 says "Response" on 08/27/06
ManhattanBrenden,

Your position is understandable, as it is the same position of many citizens of this country. For some reason, we have been born hating the powers that be; for instance, big business, finance institutions (banks), and corporations. However, putting the blame on them is, in my opinion, utterly false.

Our current economic state has been largely caused by the fact that our government is overbearing and clumsy, as opposed to, for instance, the Chinese centralized government. In fact, I have been recommended by a number of people to leave my home state of NY when I'm done with my schooling, for (as I am a business major) attempting to begin any sort of business in NY would be disastrous. High taxes, high regulations, high competition, and a large investment needed just to survive are a number of the things working against business in America.

We tend to forget that our economy isn't based on government at all; rather, our economy is free-market capitalism. The more government we have, the less economy we have. The less economy we have... you get the picture.

That is why it sickens me when people state that our economic crisis has been developed by people who conspire in an attempt to cause a recession so that our government would cut back on "needed" institutions. This, in my opinion, is utterly false. True, if we did have a severe economic downturn, the government may cut back on some spending; but even more true, as can be shown by the New Deal and other economic collapses throughout this countries history, there is a greater possibility that if we were to face a depression, the government would turn the economy into a largely socialist state, where each and every person is supported by a big government. Our economy would then be truly and permanently ruined.

I do not disagree that some government institutions are fine - medicare and the military, for instance. However, I do disagree with the amount of current overbearing subsidization which is taking place from our government into the economy. The government has the right to print money whenever it wants; but remember, it is not the government which truly backs up our money, it is the free market, because the free market is what accepts the currency, not the government. If our economy collapses, the government will lose the ability to print valuable money, and it will have to clamp down on the capitalist state. It's just the way it has been, throughout history.

And Thomas Jefferson was marginally wrong. If you take the power of issuing money from the banks and give it to "the people" - who are you really giving it too? The banks are regulated by people, just as the government is (supposedly) controlled by the people. It's capitalism. The banks must do what the people want - if they don't some other bank will, and they will be destroyed. The government just would have to make sure sufficient banks were in operation for this competition to take effect - that is all. There is truly no reason the government needs to control the economy; and in reality, we would have not had this problem (the Economic Crisis problem) if our government and economy were seperated much like church and state we seperated - for our economy would not be held in a state of false prosperity, as it is right now, by the government debt and government institutions - rather, we would see a steady decrease or increase, and no collapses.

Many would say to blame yourselves, and its true. Its our fault as a people. Because we, throughtout the past decade or two, have demanded that government expand to help us, because our economy is not doing as well as it was in, per se, the 1950s. All we have done, however, is postponed the "inevitable." It is truly up in the air whether if we, per se, were to issue radical changes, shrink the government, and expand capitalism - and thus our economy - that we would undo all our harmful effects on our economic system. The fact is, those radical changes will not take place, for people seem to tend toward despising capitalists and their related economy of capitalism.


ManhattanBrendan says "Response" on 08/27/06
The Vultures of Crisis

I think it's fair to wonder how much incentive there is for the banks, the Fed included, to stop the kind of crisis being talked about in the news of late. Competition among the rich could lend itself to desperate acts of economic warfare.

Those in the know on a coming crash end up being the ones who foreclose on those left out. Recessions don't blast wealth into oblivion so much as they redistribute it. Indebting people and indeed the nation could be step one in a multi-step game that leaves debtors destitute and vultures with tastey new assets at real cheap.

Additionally, the neoconservative economic formula is quite explicit on undoing FDR big government. For a big group of people, recession is just the leverage needed to "drown the baby in the bath water" -- or shrink certain discretionary lines in the federal budget. Crisis allows for extraordinary solutions, which could include undoing Social Security, or whatever vision hides behind the rhetoric of compassionate conservatism.

"Conspiracy theory" is a pejorative. Coordinated efforts by team players to win the game is common sense. Question is, who's playing on what team? Seems to me, in my humble understanding of this, that the board of governors on the Fed are showmen to obfuscate the identity of a team that has a very different definition of America than any of us have.

Behind the curtain shareholders wrestle it out to determine the "business cycle" or better yet, when to crash the pyramid scheme.

But who really knows? Our economy is managed in secret.

Thomas Jefferson's Warning To America : "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Written by Jefferson in a letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802).


cyberfriend says "Mr. Obama will worry you guys more!" on 01/14/08
He is supposedly Kenyan origin and is a cousin of the OYU Tribe riot mongerer over there!

Imagine the influx of Kenyan into the America's if Mr. Obama becomes President.


Cyberfriend

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